Wednesday, November 08, 2006

All paths are true VS (re)conversion to Hinduism

Many Hindus sometimes raise this doubt that as Hindus hold that all paths are true, why does then one need to (re)convert to Hinduism or in other words is not allowing someone to (re)convert to Hinduism a negation of the principle of plurality.

Such arguments only show that one did not fully understand the significance of the “many paths are true” point. The Hindu idea is that each individual is different and unique. No two individuals think alike, talk alike, like the same things etc etc. No two individuals have the same psychological structure. Hence, it is imperative that no single particular form or concept of worship (henceforth referred as “path”) is capable of catering to the vast human diversity. Thus, Hinduism acknowledges that multiple paths are not just acceptable, but necessary.

The question then naturally comes up- why (re)convert? The answer is because there are many paths and the path should be selected by the individual.

Let’s take an analogy: you tell a kid that he can take any flavour of ice cream he wants; any flavour is fine.

Now based on this, we cannot force the kid saying, you must take this vanilla flavour; you are free to take any flavour and vanilla is that “any” flavour.

The “any path is true” is meant for the **individual** to make the choice. Hence conversion is very much acceptable, provided the person is willing.

Those who say “it is bad to (re)convert others to Hinduism” are behaving against the spirit of this “many paths true” for they are denying the freedom of the individual to choose any path are confining the individuals freedom to only the religion he is born in.

It is like saying “your gold is my gold, my gold is your gold; your gold be with me, my gold also be with me”. All paths are true, so let Hindus convert to other religions if they wish; all the religions are same, so let’s not (re)convert anyone!!!

So let’s throw open the doors and invite all... whoever is willing to come are welcome.

My Favourite Books

These is my list of favourite books on Hinduism:


1. Lectures from Columbo to Almora, by Swami Vivekananda. Wonderful set of lectures filled with ideals of nationalism and spirituality. If I had power, I would have made this book compulsory in all schools. Online link of the book.

2. Jnana Yoga, by Swami Vivekananda. An in-depth introduction to philosophy. Online link of the book.

3. Bhakti Yoga, by Swami Vivekananda. Deals with the concept of Bhakti, unselfish devotion etc. Online link of the book.

4. Karma Yoga, by Swami Vivekananda. The Yoga of Action and unattached work. Online link of the book.

5. Raja Yoga, by Swami Vivekananda. About the principle behind pranayama, meditation, patanjali yoga sutras. Online link of the book.

6. Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, translated by Swami Nikhilananda. I always feel that studying/seeing the life of a Saint has thousand times more powerful impact than hundreds of theories. They don’t “preach” religion, they live it. They are the standing testimonies of the truth of the scriptures. For people with more sincere spiritual orientation. Online link of the book.


All the above six books are also available in book form in any of the Sri Ramakrishna Mission or their outlets in many Railway stations. They are also very very cheap. If you study the above 6 books, I am confident that you will cover more than 95% of Hinduism (of course that’s only the theory part, practice is an individual initiative, which no amount of book reading can give you)

Apart from the above, the following are some nice books, worth reading:

7. India’s Rebirth, by Sri Aurobindo. A wonderful book on spiritual-nationalism. It may be available at some Indological book stores or Motilalbanarasidas publishers. It is slightly costly (around 300). The same book is also available online here.

8. Autobiography of a Yogi, by Paramahamsa Yogananda. Very nice book, and perfect introduction to Indian mysticism for westerners and urban Indians. Conveys things more through real life experiences of the author than in terms of Author. Is a very famous book and will be available in any major book store. It is also available online here.

9. For the Hindutva case against Missionaries, Marxists, Mullahs (the 3 M’s), I find Arun Shourie’s books best. His writing style, facts he presents and his arguments are too good and compelling. He has written a LOT of books, but the must reads in them are:

(i) Harvesting Our Souls
(ii) Missionaries in India
(iii) Eminent Historians: Their Technology, Their Line, Their Fraud
(iv) The World of Fatwas, Or, the Shariah in Action
(v) Only Fatherland : Communists, 'Quit India,' and the Soviet Union

Unfortunately, all of them are published by usual publishing houses and hence costly. But they will be easily available in any major book store.


10. There are a LOT of more very good books, which is not possible for me to list them all. I will just give links to websites which host a lot of good books.

(i) Complete works of Swami Vivekananda: http://ramakrishnavivekananda.info/

(ii) Most books of Sri Ramana Maharshi, downloadable at: http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/downloads/downloads.htm

(iii) Works of Swami Sivananda of Divine life society available at: http://www.dlshq.org/download/download.htm

(iv) Good English translations to Upanishads and other important books: http://shastras.com/

(v) Collection of various translations and commentaries of Gita, along with audio of verses: http://www.gitasupersite.iitk.ac.in/

(vi) Best site for Hindutva related stuff. No rhetorics… presents the case in a perfectly logical manner:
http://voi.org/

Why Bharat is a Nation

This standard commie crap that India is nothing but a bunch of warring kingdoms unified by British etc etc etc has wide ranging implications. What unfortunate turn of events has come over India. Indians have to prove to fellow-Indians and others that India is indeed a nation. “Intellectual reasons” are needed for a truth which is simply obvious if you close your eyes and ask your heart.

Let it be. That should not discourage us from trying to prove the same.

Before I go into the subject, I will like to add one more word- people might have noticed that I have used the word Bharat and not India. This is to avoid any confusion between the present State of India and the historical India with the land presently called Pakistan included. Hence, I am using the word Bharat due to this reason.


Now coming to the topic… what is a Nation. The defining perspectives of nationhood are typically multidimensional. A nation is not just a geographic area separated from the world by internationally accepted boundary lines; a nation primarily exists in the minds of its citizens. Hence, in one sense, the defining perspectives make a nation.

Most of the confusion in this regard owes its origin to some of the misconceptions spread by the British. They did not find any merit in giving the Indian nation more than two hundred years of existence. In order to ensure their own dominance, they strongly asserted that there has never been an Indian nation before the nineteenth century. Their contention was that there was only a zone called India consisting of small kingdoms ruled by different dynasties. According to them the concept of unified Indian nation emerged as a result of the enlightenment brought about by western education among the elite.

All this confusion can be overcome by first understanding the difference between Nation with State and what patriotism means.

Why should one be even patriotic at all? Is it because we just happen to be born in this country by some random turn of events not in my control (assuming one does not believe in Karma and Reincarnation).. is it because some guys sitting in delhi made a line on maps and then told us that this part is India, this part is Pakistan etc etc and that they have to be loyal to it?

No, I don’t think that can be the case. If that is to be true, then nationalism is just jingoism. A nation is not a mere geographical or political entity. It is rather the name given to the collective consciousness of a group of people bound together by common set of ideals etc. Though these ideals cannot be tooo specific (else there is nothing in common) these cannot be at the same time too vague and hence absurd. (like “humanity”, “mankind”)

Just like a unit of army may have a particular goal to be archived which it does thinking and working as a group, nation is a group of people who are brought together by common ideals, aims and easy of getting together. This may be helped by factors like common history, common culture, common geography etc etc.

The bottom line is the individual ceases to act as an individual and acts as a part of the group (this need not be seen as a negation of citizen’s individuality. Its just a realization that individual interests too are best served by acting together).

Patriotism is the name given to the responsibility towards the web called Nation of which is also a part.

Thought a Nation is set of individuals bound together by a common ideal, they need a agent through which their collective aspirations are given shape. Thus comes the idea of State. A State is a political set up which acts on behalf of the (majority) individuals (note the difference between a Nation and a State)

The state is the means a nation chooses to give certain amount of freedom to the individual but enforces some minimum solidarity towards the Nation.

Now having established the difference between a Nation and a State and that a Nation is much much more than mere political entity, lets come back to the topic.


Cultural Oneness:
Are there are pointers which can prove that indeed such collective consciousness was present among the people of Bharat? Is the idea of Bharat a mere British contribution of was there earlier? Yes it was.

The idea of India, as Bharatavarsha or Aryavrata, appears to have been alive for thousands of years in our stories, thousands of years before there was an America or a Great Britain or a Mexico or France.

From the Manusmriti, we learn of the land of Aryavrata stretching from the Himalayas and Vindhyas all the way to the eastern and western oceans. Without the idea of Bharata, there could have been no epic called the Maha-Bharata that engaged kings throughout this land of Bharata. The story of Mahabharata shows a remarkable degree of pan-Indian context and inter-relationships, from Gandhari, the wife of Drithrashtra who came from Gandhara, (spelled as Kandahar in present-day Afghanistan), Draupadi from Panchala (present day Jammu and Kashmir), all the way to Arjun meeting and marrying the Naga princess Uloopi on a visit to Manipur in the east (from where he gets the `Mani' or Gem). Interestingly, Arjuna is said to have gone on a pilgrimage to the holy places of the east when this happens, showing the current North-East was very much linked in this. Finally, Krishna himself is from Mathura and Vrindavana (in UP) though his kingdom itself is in Dwarka (Gujarat).

Similarly, the story of Ramayana draws the north-south linkage from Ayodhya all the way down to Rameshwaram, at the tip of which is finally the land of Lanka. Note that it is not, for this particular thesis, important that the stories are historically accurate.

What we are interested in rather is whether the idea of India or Bharatavarsha or Aryavrata as a culturally linked entity existed in the minds of the story-tellers and ultimately in the minds of the people to whom these stories were sacred. And these stories were then taken and told and retold in all the languages of the people of this great civilization, till the stories themselves established a linkage among us and to the sacred geography they celebrated. This sacred geography is what makes northerners flock to Tirupati and southerners to the Kumbha Mela.

And the diffusion of these common ideas was certainly not only from the north to south. The great Bhakti movement started in the 6th and 7th centuries AD had its roots in the south in the Tamil and Kannada languages. Even while the boundaries of kingdoms changed, enormous cultural and religious unity continued to take place across India. It started off with the Alvars and the Nayanars (Tamil, 7th to 10th century AD), Kamban (Tamil, 11th century), Basava (Kannada, 12th century) and moved on to Chaitanya Mahaprabu (Bengali, 15th century), Ramananda (15th century, born in Allahabad of south India parentage, guru of Kabir, 15th century), Raskhan (16th century), Surdas (Braj, 16th century), Mirabia (Rajasthan, 16th century), Tulsidas (Avadhi, 16th century), Nanak (Punjabi, 16th century) and Tukaram (Marathi, 17th century), among the many. All these together weaved a garland across the land that spoke again of our common truths, our common cultural heritage.

The Bhakti movement retold our ancient stories in the language of the common people, in Marathi and Bengali, in Avadhi (present day UP) and Bhojpuri (present day Bihar), in Gujarati and Punjabi and in Rajasthani. We can marvel at the cultural unity in India, where while the Bhakti poets initiated the great movement for devotion to Shiva in the south, the erudite philosophy of Kashmir Shaivism was being developed coevally in the north.

Or that Kamban in the south was the first poet to take the story of Rama to the major regional languages, and Tulsidas, much closer to Ayodhya, came centuries later. Or that the great Krishna bhakta Chaitanya was celebrating his devotion to the King of Dwarka in Bengal while Tukaram sang praises of Lord Vithal in the west. An immense body of pan-Indian worship revolved around the triad of Vishnu, Shiva and Shakti in their various forms – whether as Rama, Krishna, Sri Venkateshwara, Sri Dakshinamurti, Jagdamba, Durga Mata or Kali. These common stories were told and retold without the mandate of any central church and seeped through the pores of the land of Bharata, forging a shared bond, unlike any other seen on the planet.

It was this idea of civilizational unity and sacred geography of India that inspired Shankaracharya to not only enunciate the mysteries of the Vedanta but to go around setting up mathas circumscribing the land of India in a large diamond shape. While sage Agasthya crossed the Vindhya and came down south, Shankracharya was born in the village of Kalady in Kerala and traveled in the opposite direction for the establishment of dharma. If this land was not linked in philosophical and cultural exchanges, and there was no notion of a unified nation, why then did Shankracharya embark on his countrywide digvijay yatra? What prompted him to establish centers spreading light for the four quadrants of this land – Dwarka in the west (in Gujarat), Puri in the east (in Orissa), Shringeri in the south (Karnataka) and Badrinath (Uttaranchal) in the north? He is then said to have gone to Srinagar (the abode of `Sri' or the Shakti) in Kashmir, which still celebrates this in the name of Shankaracharya Hill. What better demonstration that the idea of the cultural unity of the land was alive more than a thousand years ago?

And yet, these stories are not taught to us in our schools in India. We learn instead, in our schools, that the British created India and gave us a link language, as if we were not talking to each other for thousands of years, traveling, telling and retelling stories before the British came. How else did these ideas travel so rapidly through the landmass of India, and how did Shankracharya circumscribe India, debating, talking and setting up institutions all within his short lifespan of 32 years?

These ideas of our unity have permeated all our diverse darshanas. We have talked about Bhakti and Vedanta and the epics of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. But this idea of unity was not limited to particular schools. They were equally present in the tantric schools that exerted a tremendous influence on popular worship. Thus we have the legend of Shakti, whose body was carried by Shiva and cut up by Vishnu, landing in 51 places throughout the landmass of India that are now the site of the Shakti Peetham temples. The body of Shakti, or so the story goes, fell all the way from Neelayadakshi Kovil in Tamil Nadu to Vaishno Devi in Jammu, from Pavagadh in Gujarat to the Kamakshi temple in Assam and 47 other places.

Why would the story conceive of these pieces of Shakti sanctifying and falling precisely all over the landmass of India, rather than all of them falling in Tamil Nadu or Assam or Himachal (or alternately, Yunan (Greece) or China, or some supposed `Aryan homeland' in Central Asia) unless someone had a conception of the unity of the land and civilization of Bharatavarsha? Whether these stories are actual or symbolic, represent real events or myths, it is clear from them that the idea of India existed in the minds of those that told these stories and those that listened.

Together, all these stories wove and bound us together, along with migration, marriages and exchange of ideas into a culture unique in the story of mankind. A nation that was uniquely bound together in myriads of ways, yet not cast into a mono-conceptual homogeneity of language, worship, belief or practice by the diktat of a centralized church, intolerant of diversity.

If the concept of India did not exist earlier, why did the British, when they landed in Bengal, form the East India Company and not East Bengal company- how is it possible unless the conception of the land of India (a term derived from the original Hind) was shared by the natives and the British? They used this name much before they had managed to politically hold sway over much of India, and before they educated us that no India existed before their arrival. Why would the Portuguese celebrate the discovery of a sea-route to India when Vasco de Gama had landed in Calicut in the south, if India was a creation of the British Empire?


Ethnic/Civilizational Oneness:
The other pet argument people like to give is that India is a conglomeration of different set of invaders coming and settling here in different points of time.

The recent gene studies on the DNA samples of the people of India suggest the complete opposite. See tis research paper for example:

The Genetic Heritage of the Earliest Settlers Persists Both in Indian Tribal and Caste Populations
The American Journal of Human Genetics

Two tribal groups from southern India—the Chenchus and Koyas—were analyzed for variation in mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), the Y chromosome, and one autosomal locus and were compared with six caste groups from different parts of India, as well as with western and central Asians…. H, L, and R2 are the major Indian Y-chromosomal haplogroups that occur both in castes and in tribal populations and are rarely found outside the subcontinent....
Haplotype frequencies of the MX1 locus of chromosome 21 distinguish Koyas and Chenchus, along with Indian caste groups, from European and eastern Asian populations. Taken together, these results show that Indian tribal and caste populations derive largely from the same genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians and have received limited gene flow from external regions since the Holocene. [Source]


Political Oneness
Having seen how Bharat is culturally and civilizationally one, I come to the next topic of political unity.

As I said different political kingdoms does not in any way disprove nationhood. For example, in US all the 50 states are very different in many many ways, they even have double citizenship, different laws etc. But such mere administrative differences cannot disprove the concept of Nationhood.

Having said that, we can see that many successful attempts at political unity too were also made in India.

Among the earliest political consolidations, even by the dates of present colonial scholarship, was under the Mauryas from the 6th century BC to the 3rd century BC, when most of India was under their rule.

After the Mauryas, there was repeated political consolidation of large parts of India, even when all of it was not under a single rule. The Kanishkas consolidated the north from the Hindu Kush Mountains to Bihar and south to Gujarat and Central India. The Satavahana Empire, considered to be founded by high officials of the Mauryas, consolidated the south and central parts.

The Gupta Empire again politically consolidated the area from Afghanistan to Assam and south to the Narmada, possibly exerting political control even further down south. Samudragupta led an expedition all the way down to Kanchipuram in present Tamil Nadu. While the southern areas were not formally part of the Empire, they were quite likely de-facto vassal states, paying tribute to the Emperor.

Note that it would be a thousand years after the Mauryan Empire was established and even much after the Gupta Empire that the Anglo-Saxons in the 5th century AD would first move into the region that would later be called England. It would be nearly five hundred more years before the territory of England would be consolidated as an independent political entity. Only much later would there be attempts at unity of `Great Britain'. The `United Kingdom' that includes Scotland, Wales and Ireland, as we mentioned earlier, is only a recent political artifact.

After the Gupta Empire, the Chalukya-Chola dynasty consolidated most of India in the south, leading expeditions even up to the north of the Ganges river.

Later on, much of India would be consolidated again under the Mughals, and after the Mughal empire disintegrated, by the British.

So while the British were the last power, before the current state of India, to administratively consolidate its territory (as well as to divide it up as they left), they were by no means the first ones to do so.

Even when multiple kingdoms existed, these kingdoms were not like the countries of today with a passport and visa regime needed to cross and all kinds of regulations on movement of goods and people. A continued exchange of ideas, people, goods and scholarship took place throughout the sub-continent, largely unmindful of the boundaries of kingdoms.

Furthermore, the territorial boundaries of India were largely maintained. There were few, if any, times before the British came when large parts of India were consolidated into kingdoms that were centered outside it. There were no significant long-lasting kingdoms, for instance, that ruled from Persia to the Ganges plain, or from Burma to Bengal, or from China or Tibet to Delhi. There was a separateness and integrity to this land.

Even in the case of the British, when all of India became part of a larger empire centered outside it for the first time, it was clear that it was distinct from Burma, for instance, even though they were contiguous land areas ruled by the British. And thus the freedom movements in Burma and India were separate. Burma and India did not become one after their respective independence, nor was there any call by Indian or Burmese nationalists to do so.

Thus there was an idea of India that made it be regarded as a separate and whole, even through political change and shifting boundaries of internal kingdoms.



In conclusion, I can only say that this crap of Bharat is not a Nation before and thanks to British for making it one is just a case of a lie repeatedly told until people started taking it as a sort of truth.


"India is not just a piece of land, not merely a collection of people, but a conscious spiritual being, a Divine Power, a Shakti, Devi, Goddess. India is Mother India, a living form of Divine Mother." ~ Sri Aurobindo


Disclaimer: Many part of this I plagiarized from this article and some are my additions.

Should we Evangelise?



Krinvanto Vishvam Aryam [Lets Aryanise the world] ~ Rig Veda

There have been great conquering races in the world. We also have been great conquerors. The story of our conquest has been described by that noble Emperor of India, Asoka, as the conquest of religion and of spirituality. Once more the world must be conquered by India. This is the dream of my life, and I wish that each one of you who hear me today will have the same dream in your minds, and stop not till you have realised the dream. They will tell you every day that we had better look to our own homes first and then go to work outside. But I will tell you in plain language that you work best when you work for others. The best work that you ever did for yourselves was when you worked for others, trying to disseminate your ideas in foreign languages beyond the seas, and this very meeting is proof how the attempt to enlighten other countries with your thoughts is helping your own country. One-fourth of the effect that has been produced in this country by my going to England and America would not have been brought about, had I confined my ideas only to India. This is the great ideal before us, and every one must be ready for it — the Conquest of the whole world by India — nothing less than that, and we must all get ready for it, strain every nerve for it… Up, India, and conquer the world with your spirituality! ~ Swami Vivekananda


So yes we SHOULD evangelise. Its not merely about giving good thought to others. It is the much needed antidote for the slavish mentality which has been gripping the Hindus.

In my opinion even the talks of “first protecting the Hinduism from the onslaught of Semitic religions” is also just another form of this slavish mentality. Real pride is not content with defending what one has, but is also keen on sharing our ideals with the entire world.

Instead of passivity, activity; for the standard of weakness, the standard of strength; in place of a steadily yielding defense, the ringing cheer of the invading host. Merely to change the attitude of the mind, in this way is already to accomplish a revolution.

It is surprising to think how radical a change is entailed in many directions by this conception. We are longer oppressed with jealousy or fear, when we contemplate encroachments on our social and religious consciousness. Indeed, the idea of encroachment has ceased, because our work is not now to protect ourselves but to convert others. Point by point, we are determined not merely to keep what we had but to win what we never had before. The question is no longer of other people’s attitude towards us but rather of what we think of them. It is not how much we kept but how much we annexed. We cannot afford to lose, because we are sworn to carry the battle far beyond our remotest frontiers. We no longer dream of submission, because struggle itself has become only the first step towards a distant victory to be won.

This is by no means to say that we should also do all the sort of things which we hate others for doing against us. We not just aim to aryanise the world, we do it the Aryan way. As Swami Vivekananda adds to the above para “ Ay, as has been declared on this soil first, love must conquer hatred, hatred cannot conquer itself. Materialism and all its miseries can never be conquered by materialism. Armies when they attempt to conquer armies only multiply and make brutes of humanity. Spirituality must conquer the West.”

Disclaimer: I freely plagiarized from Sister Nivedita, making minor changes to suit the context. Hence could not quote.


Onkar's original post on this subject:
Considering that India, the country with the largest number of Hindus in the world is under attack from Chrsitian and Muslim evangelists, who are trying anything and everything in their power to convert and subvert Hindus into leaving their tradition and accepting a foreign faith and culture, what should be the duty of the Hindus in this regard?

While there are some organisations that are proselytising Hinduism to those who have converted to other religions to bring them back to the Hindu fold, these organisations have a fundamentally political motive and therefore, will have limited success in reaching out to the people.

Also, these organisations will have little influence on people outside India. The only Hindu lobbies outside of India are those of Hindus who have settled abroad, and even their children and they themselves are subjected to conversion attempts, depending on what country they are in.

Therefore, I think the need of the hour is, as Swami Vivekananda said, that Hindu organisations that have the economic clout should start proselytisation not only in Indian regions where Hinduism is dead or dying, but also in foreign countries where Hinduism even has a marginal foothold, and attempt to make this foothold stronger.

To me, it does not matter what kind of Hinduism is being preached to the people, which is why I commend the ISKCON people even though I do not agree with their philosophy, for spreading Hindu values and ideas in foreign lands.

However, some people say that it is against the spirit of Hinduism to evangelise, since all religions are the same.

Rama & agnipareeksha of Sita

This question of why Rama, the maryada puroshottama, the perfect human, asked Sita to prove her purity. More often than not, while the leftists cry hoarse over women's inequality and the rightist cry hoarse over the need to preserve the "nari samman" over this, the underlying concept of the king not being a autocrat, but a subject to the people's will is lost! so's the underlying concept that the king must be free of moral stains.

The following is my reply in a thread on this subject of Sita's agnipareeksha:

Before going into the topic it is first understand the very concpet of incarnation. Quoting from here:

-----8<----
The Hindu divinities issue no commandments. They do not automatically retaliate by rejecting or threatening to excommunicate us if we live by our own code of morality rather than follow their precepts. And yet they have clever ways of quietly intruding into our lives and knocking at the doors of our consciousness. It is very common, for example, for a dutiful son to be praised as Ram, or a talented daughter commended as a virtual Saraswati. I have often heard a happy and satisfied mother-in-law refer to her son's wife as the 'coming of Lakshmi incarnate' into her home. One constantly meets the living incarnations of Hindu gods and goddesses in everyday life. Frequently their worldly behave-alikes are genuinely loveable and even inspiring in the way they live up to their chosen commitments.

Thus, Hindu devis and devatas are not distant heavenly figures, but a living presence in most people's lives. They hold powerful sway as moral exemplars who demonstrate standards of morality that even ordinary people can aspire to emulate. But the codes of morality they demonstrate are not prescriptive. They are there to provide valuable insights into certain enduring values that people use in their own lives in an extremely flexible way, keeping the immediate situation in mind. Hindus usually do not fall into the trap of uncritically replicating the behavior of the deities they revere, for that would produce absurd or tragic results.

A special feature of Hinduism is that there is no sharp divide between the divine and the human. Various gods and goddesses take an avatar and descend to earth to appear among humans like ordinary mortals in intimate familial relationships.

They are often willing to be judged by the same rules and moral yardsticks that one would use for a fellow human being. Devotees and non-devotees alike have the right to judge them by how well they perform or fail to perform the roles they have chosen.

They neither claim perfection nor do they command us to unquestioningly approve of all they do. They allow us the freedom to pass judgements on them, to condemn those of their actions that we consider immoral or unfair, and to praise those actions we find honorable or worthy of emulation.
----->8------

The concept of Avatara is that the infinite, limitless by his own will bounds himself and takes the form of a on earth. He too thus cannot remain untouched about the general human limitations like hunger, sleep etc. But his struggle against all these human limitations is to be an example and inspiration for others too. The Narayana who is the limitless, out of love for jivas enters the world of limitations to uphold the Dharma.

In my opinion the very concept of God coming as a human and showing by example is one of the highest ideas humans have ever conceived.

I in my present position not being able to do an Herculean task and god just waving his hand and it being done, is fine, but not a great ideal in my view. "He is powerful, so he did it, I am powerless, so I cant do it" is the typical idea one forms. But the belief that God himself has come down as a human to our level to show us by example in his own life. A god, attaining Moksha is no great a deal. But the same god, being born like one of us, having been subjected to the same type of problems and limitations, but raising above them is surely a great idea, even if it is just a belief.

Why am I talking about all this instead of simply answering your question… I am coming to that only.

The episodes of gods are meant to illustrate the same. When someone comes into the relativity (world), there is always both good and bad sides of it. What is good to the snake is bad to the frog.

Though Rama never personally doubts Sita, he has some duties as a king and he has to make a choice. What is correct for Rama as a king is bad for Rama as a husband. Either way something is going to be effected. Rama choose his duty as a king. He personally endured lot of pain for that.

Different people may have different opinions about this decision… some may prefer choosing his duty as husband more than his duty as king… each may have his own personal opinions over this issue. What this incident aims to demonstrate is the complexity of the world and taking the “good of the most” route out of any such thing, even if that is personally a painful one (in this context one has to keep in mind that Hindus recollect this incident, not with a smile, with a pain in their hearts). The same explanation also holds in the case of Rama killing Vali from behind.

Time Periods of Yugas

Question:
hi all
i had always wondered abt the time period of different yugs.
can someone tell me the the exact period of dwapar yug, treta yug, satyug and finally kalyug and can they anyway be connected to the dates or years that we understand?????


My Reply:
The purana concept of Yuga time scales is:

1. Satya Yuga or Krita Yuga - 1,728,000 years
2. Treta Yuga - 1,296,000 years
3. Dvapara Yuga - 864,000 years
4. Kali Yuga - 432,000 years

But there is many other views about the same. I find the concept of Yugas put by Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri (guru of Paramahansa Yogananda) more appealing.

Quoting from wiki:

In his book, The Holy Science, Sri Yukteswar explains that the descending phase of Satya Yuga lasts 4800 years, Treta Yuga 3600 years, Dwapara Yuga 2400 years, and Kali Yuga 1200 years. The ascending phase of Kali Yuga then begins, also lasting 1200 years; and so on. The ascending phase of Kali Yuga began in September of 499 CE. Since September 1699, we have been in the ascending phase of Dwapara Yuga, according to Sri Yukteswar. Evidence exists to support Sri Yukteswar's theory. For example, the average life span is getting longer (see above).

According to the traditional concept, the 4 yugas go in a cycle. ie:

Satya Yuga --> Treta Yuga --> Dwapara Yuga --> Kali Yuga --- end of a cycle --> Satya Yuga…..

But according to Sri Yukteswar Giri:

Satya Yuga --> Treta Yuga --> Dwapara Yuga --> Kali Yuga --- end of a cycle --> Kali Yuga --> Dwapara Yuga --> Treta Yuga --> Satya Yuga..

Also in his his case, the shift from one yuga to another is not sudden but continious. ie, the ending phases of Dwapara yuga and beginning phases of Kali yuga will overlap. Then there is ascending and descending of each yuga.

I am no scholar in this regard, but I find this more appealing, as somehow the concept of a wavy-cycle of time appeals more to me than the concept of abrupt shifts in a cycle of time. This concept of abrupt shifts from full Kali to Satya yuga is more like a some vague unknown reason (seen from the concept of impersonal, abruptness is always less appealing to the mind)


PS: The wiki article on Hindu Cosmology is a nice place to start with.

This article by Subhash Kak is also worth reading.


Question:
Surya, doesn't this negate the concept of pralaya?


My Reply:
According the puranic metrics of time:

One cycle of the above four yugas is one mahayuga (4.32 million solar years)

A manvantara consists of 71 mahayugas (306,720,000 solar years)

After each manvantara follows one Sandhi Kala of the same duration as a Krita Yuga (1,728,000 = 4x solar years). (It is said that during a Sandhi Kala, the entire earth is submerged in water.)

A kalpa consists of a period of 1,728,000 solar years called Adi Sandhi, followed by 14 manvantaras and Sandhi Kalas.
A day of Brahma equals
= (14 times 71 mahayugas) + (15 times 4x solar years)
= 994 mahayugas + (60 x solar years)
= 994 mahayugas + (6 times 10 x ) solar years
= 994 mahayugas + 6 mahayugas
= 1000 mahayugas


The concept of Pralaya comes after the end of day of Brahma.

In Hindu cosmology, a universe endures for about 4,320,000,000 years (one day of Brahma, the creator or kalpa) and is then destroyed by fire or water elements. At this point, Brahma rests for one night, just as long as the day. This process, named pralaya (Cataclysm), repeats for 100 Brahma years (311 trillion human years) that represents Brahma's lifespan.

So as it appears, the cycle of pralaya comes into picture only at the end of a day of Brahma (ie., one kalpa or 1000 Maha yugas) There is no reference of any pralaya occurring at the end of each maha yuga as well. So no pralaya is taking place in between the end of a maha yuga and the beginning of a new one until the end of 1 kalpa (1000 maha yugas.)

Hence in both the case, pralaya can be accounted.

Religion doesnt really matter?

Question:
Recently I had an argument with my friend...

I said All these service organisations must slowly spread our religion also...

She said
Nowadays I feel service to the human being next to u is more important...It doesnt matter what their religion is...so if a christian missionary is helping ppl and demands they get converted in return, whats the harm in that? U cant talk abt karma and bhahman to a hungry stomach...Atleast they lead a happy life...
Assumption here being missionaries do really help.


Now I have some issues with this....Now we are in a majority and hence we still have the freedom to practise our religion without any trouble...suppose we allow conversion(because it removes the guy's day-to-day problems and Religion doesnt really matter), soon we will become minority...then will I have the same freedom? How much trust can we place in Abhrahamic religions, that they will not try to convert us by sword when they become majority?

Or Am I wrong? we mustnt mix service with religion...would we turn out to be like christian missionaries whose main is conversion...


My Reply:
There are many flaws in that line of thinking of your friend. Some of them:

1. The proposition is a typical “your gold is my gold, my gold is your gold; your gold be with me, my gold also be with me” attitude – religion does not matter, so lets not convert others, religion does not matter, so lets allow others to convert (this same religion does not matter is also presented with replacing “all religions are same stuff”)

2. The helplessness of the exploited is no justification for what the exploiter has done. For example, suppose a criminal uses an orphan child to do theft, then it is a unfortunate event for the child (exploited), but this does not justify what the criminal (exploiter) has done. In the same manner, the hunger of the exploited does not in any way justify the exploiter misusing it. Rather it makes it a bigger offense.

3. The whole debate revolves around the assumption that Christian missionaries do really help. But for few cases like that of Mother Theresa (though she too was involved in conversions), the work of Missionaries cannot be termed help. I have argued in this blog of mine that missionary charity is just a myth.

4. One should distinguish between help and ensuring dependability. Making one self sufficient or atleast helping one in that direction is called help. But making one more dependent cannot be termed help. We have often seen that big countries like US etc some times give money to the small countries in the name of help. But they do it in realms such that it does not really help the person, but only makes him more dependent (like giving free cars and selling you oil- just an example). The case of African countries which have seen huge conversions in the last century serves as an example. Those people did not become independent, but rather became more dependent.

5. Keeping aside the economical factors, the major concern is the separatist tendency which is accompanied by these conversions. The case of North East is a perfect example for it. No matter what the temporal benefits, one cannot encourage such things- do we allow people taking money and turning against the country. Then why should we allow this, even if this happens at a milder pace and manner.

6. Having said all, I agree to the point that religion is not more important than a hungry person. But that’s the whole damn point you idiot (missionary): religion does not matter, so shut your mouth and sit in your home; help if you can, but don’t do business and call it help; at least don’t do in the name of religion.


Question:
can service organisations run by hindus, also use it as a medium to spread religion?Or Am I wrong? we mustnt mix service with religion...would we turn out to be like christian missionaries whose main is conversion...

My Reply:
Can service organizations run by Hindus also use it as a medium to spread religion?? A definite Yes. Why not?

Saving the "humanity" as a whole is good, but it starts with first saving yourself... hence I see nothing wrong in maintaining a preferential attitude (wrt protection of Hinduism) in service... after all it is Hinduism which is motivating that service to fellow men.

That being said, even self-preservation is impossible if one cocoons himself; rather one should be boldly willing to take the battle to new frontiers.

Basically it depends on the situation... if we have 10 rotis, we share them only within our family; but if we have 100 rotis, we go out and share them with others also and hence in a way also increase the boundaries of our family.

Hinduism - Philosphy or Religion?

Question:
I have seen few hindus who claimed that hinduism is not religion but a philosphy, is this true ? and if it is religion , how come gods originated from a philosphy ?


My Reply:
Hinduism has two main parts:

1. Jnana
2. Bhakti

Jnana is the philosophical part and Bhakti is the faith/beliefs/rituals part.

They are like two overlapping circles. There are some portions which are purely philosophical but nothing to do with Jnana. In the same way there may be some parts which are purely Bhakti and may not have (or may not be known) any philosophy.

Jnana and Bhakti are like Science and Engineering. I think there may be some people from non-science backgrounds here, so lemme first explain the difference between them.

Science is concerned about the principle and understanding of various phenomenon, while engineering is more bothered about just to get things done. Take making of fire for example. Science is knowing why fire is created, what should be the type of materials which can be used, whether the reaction is exothermic or endothermic, what are the atomic mass loss due to this, what is the efficiency etc etc. While engineering on the other hand is to simply get things done… knowing which materials can make fire (not bothered about what are their internal properties which makes it possible) and what’s the easy way to make it.. that’s all.

In the same way Jnana is to know how prayer works, what’s the nature of soul etc etc. Bhakti is not being bothered about thus “how” and simply get the things done.

Of course both are actually inseparable. Just for the sake of understanding I have mentioned them separately. Just like science helps engineering and vice-versa, inculcating Jnana helps Bhakti and inculcating Bhakti helps Jnana.

It the combination of these two that we call religion.


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

There was another intresting discussion on the subject of "Hinduism - a way of life" with a christian. The discussion is as follows:

Geetika said:
I am starting to have a pet peeve about the phrase "way of life". Everyone says their religion is not a religion, but a "way of life". What is that supposed to mean?

My Reply:
Usually Hinduism, Buddhism, Zen, Tao etc like to call themselves as “way of life” than as religions.

Most probable reason why most eastern religions tend to disassociate with the term religion is coz most of the times the term religion is defined or understood using all Semitic ideas.

Take the point one in above dictionary definition of Religion itself, posted by Paul. It reads Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe

But the truth is that most of the ER (Eastern Religions) don’t believe in a “creator” god.

So many followers of ER don’t like to call their religions as religions coz the word religion itself is defined in a different context.

Now about the other point of are not other religions a “way of life” too. People tend to use “way of life” when the choice is in the hands of the individual.

When ER’s say a “way of life”, they really give the freedom of beliefs to the individual and doesn’t impose them. While in the case of Christianity that “way” of life is fixed (or comparatively rigid) so its more apt to call it a “rule of life” than “way of life”.

Agreed that if seen from a purely grammatical angle, the “way of life” statement is flawed, but when seen in the context and essence your pet peeve is just nit picking.


>> but a "way of life".

Trying to careful mislead by emphasizing at the wrong words?

You have put the “way of life” in quotes, but what more important is what preceded it. Christianity claims itself to be “THE way of life”, while ERs claim to be just “A way of life”. The important difference is what precedes the way of life — THE or A.

Women in Hinduism – Refutation of the Islamic propaganda

Call it irony or the inability to project a good picture of what their own religion say about women, the net these days is filled with false propaganda from the Islamists writing all types of crap against how women is treated in Hinduism. There are numerous websites in which excited morons mirror the same pages.

I usually don’t argue much with those guys. It’s a terrible waste of time… to put it in Onkar’s words “A muslim comes and tells you to cut your penis, and the Hindus want to have an intellectual argument with him”.

Anyhow, it is necessary that no doubts exist on these subjects in the minds of Hindus. Hence, keeping the not-so-fully-knowledgeable-Hindus in mind, I wrote this refutation, taking one such page as sample. I did not go into sentence by sentence refutation, but only concentrated on understanding the misleading means adopted in such articles.


Question:
Here a guy is quoting a lot of things, claiming to be from Vedas.

http://tinyurl.com/yyax4w

All this is plagiarised from here...

http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/hinduism/hindu_women.html

Is there any truth in it? Or a case of out of context quoting?


My Answer:
What a joke… such person talks about the condition of women according to Hinduism!!! The article follows all the typical misleading tactics used by such type of morons. Some of them are:


1. Bank on the ignorance of the reader: What these idiots usually do is write whatever crap they want to write and then put then put a “sacred Hindu scripture” in the bracket, so that the reader feels “just like Quran is the sacred and unquestionable authority for me, this must be the same for the Hindus… chi chi what they speak of”.

They typical straw men cases… take up a book and then make it the holy scripture of Hindus. The same is done there with Manu Smriti. How many Hindus even ever saw a copy of Manu Smriti?? – will not be even 0.1% of Hindus.

And even from a religious stand point, Smritis/Dharma Shastras are actually more social recordings than ‘scriptures’. Anyone can write a Dharma Shastra. I too can write a Dharma Shastra by my name, mentioning my opinions about how society should be… what should be the duty of husband, wife etc etc. The point is how accepted it is?

Also, even from an orthodox standpoint, Parasara Smriti, not Manu Smriti is the Smriti presently for Hindus.

The same with the case of many other “scriptures”. The author also extensively quotes “Panchatantra” as a Hindu “scripture”, while any idiot knows that it is a stories book.

Hence, half the quotes given there as “this is what the “holy” books of Hindus speak” have no social acceptance, nor religious. Take a book and attribute it to Hindus- how convenient!


2. Circular references: This typical trait of Marxist historians, discussed in detail by Arun Shourie in his “Eminent Historians” (which in my view is a must read book for any person with serious interest in history).

I used to observe with grin that the pen-names of all the authors in the Dalististhan were typically of the type “Sita XYZ”, “ABC Sharma” etc… names which I never actually have seen people having. I used to get puzzled at that time, but later realized the psychology of it after seeing some muslim trolls on orkut.

Someone reads extracts of it and says “hey look, it is written by some Sita_____, coming directly from a Hindu himself, hence it must be true”. Then some other such writer quotes this author and make their article look more scholarly.

Four people sit together and write anti-Hindu stuff. I quote the other three, and they quote mine… and all of them appear full with references.

The same is seen in this case. Seeing the squalre bracketed references in that article, it is obvious that the author is more interested in showing that he has done “thorough” research. If you are acquainted with real research papers, then you will realize that they don’t quote a guy ever two words. It is only in this type of cases where they want to “show” something, they do that excessive quoting. The calculation there is rarely does one care to carefully look into the books given in the references, dosent matter even if they are “Women in Delhi Sultanate” or “`India as described by the Arab Travellers”.

But to make it sound more “balanced”, quote from some that good, well accepted books stuff like “Rama killed Tataka” (who is a Rakshasi), and then add his own, “by doing so, he did not show any respect to women”. For a person who only sees the references will feel, “Oh god even such accepted book is part of the references”, while people do not note that he has only quoted harmless and useless matter from that book.


3. Put the heading you want and give a different reference: See for example the following

Once again we hear that Sati is sanctioned by the Vedas:
"..is enjoined by the Vedas,"[Br.P. 80.75] [Sheth 103]
and is
"greatly reputed in all the worlds"[Br.P. 80.75] [Sheth 103]

The heading there goes as “sanctioned by Vedas”, and then as if he is giving the references from the Vedas… but lo… he does not quote any Vedas… rather he quotes another person saying it is there in Vedas.

One usually sees the heading and then does not go into the details- so one finds, “oh Vedas too say it”, while in reality the author has not quoted the Vedas there.

The same is seen in this case also: Talking about women and Visashnavism he says:

"Chaitanya thought it to be a sin to talk, think or even dream of women and that even the sight of a wooden statue of a woman can distract the mind and be responsible for immorality. He advised people to avoid being alone even with their own mother , sister or daughter."[Nand 124-127]

He then puts italics and indentation to it, as in the cases where he has given references to other “holy books”, hence creating the feeling that “ok this too must be from some “holy” book. But if one cares to go to the bottom and check it, then the [Nand..] is “`Women in Delhi Sultanate’” book.

I am sure 99% of people will not verify it. Seeing the formatting, they will assume that this too is from a “Hindu holy book”.


4. Giving half the reality: While talking about the women in Buddhism and Jainism, the author quotes:

"Buddha is said to have induced his disciples not to look at a woman or even talk to her"[Sacred Books of the East,XI p.91 cited in N.N.Bhatt p.44]

Firstly, as I said in points 2 and 3, he did not quote any relevant book there. He quoted another person that’s all… not any Buddhist scripture, but maintained a formatting of italics and indentation to mean it is indeed a “holy scripture”.
If that is one part, the other part is that even that reference is half. If Buddha asked his male disciples not to look at women, he also gave the same advice to female disciples, not to look at men. He only talked from the stand point of a monk abstaining from all kinds of sexual thoughts and their possible sources. It does not mean any bad thing towards women. But careful half-quoting gives an altogether different meaning.


5. Coming to the so-called-vedic references. Apart from the cases of heading of “vedic refrerence” and then quoting a different book (as elaborated in point-3), there are not more than 2-3 of places where actually some veda reference is claimed, so it is comparatively easy to prove them false.

Take the verse where the author gives “vedic proof” from existence of Sati in Vedas and gives the reference of Rig Veda X.18.7. This is that Rig Veda X.18.7 from sacred scriptures:

Let these unwidowed dames with noble husbands adorn themselves with fragrant balm and unguent.
Decked with fair jewels, tearless, free from sorrow, first let the dames go up to where he lieth (##)


It only talks about “unwidowed” and not about “widows” so where does the case of sait arise??

Or the Taittriya Samhita which he gives as a proof for the “Vedic reference” of female infanticide. Here is the Taittriya Samhita VI.5.10.3, which he claimed to be the proof for female infanticide:

Offspring and cattle are born through the cups, goats and sheep through the Upançu and Antaryama, men through the Çukra and Manthin, whole-hooved animals through the season-cups, kine through the Aditya cup. The Aditya cup is drawn with the largest number of Rcs; therefore kine axe the most numerous of cattle; in that he thrice draws apart with his hand the Upançu (cup), therefore the female goat gives birth to two or three, but sheep are more numerous.

The Agrayana is the father, the tub is the son; if the Agrayana is exhausted, he should draw from the tub; that is as when a father [1] in destitution has recourse to his son. If the tub is exhausted, he should draw from the Agrayana; that is as when a son in destitution has recourse to his father. The Agrayana is the self of the sacrifice; if the cup or the tub should be exhausted, he should draw from the Agrayana; verily from the self he develops the sacrifice. The Agrayana is drawn (with a verse) in which there is no discriminating mark; he draws with a pot, he offers with (the vessel) for Vayu; therefore [2] (a man) is a slayer of a Brahman (through slaying) an embryo which has not been discriminated. They go to the final bath; they deposit the pots, but lift up (the vessels) for Vayu; therefore they deposit a daughter on birth, a son they lift up. In that be utters the Puroruc, it is as when one brings (something) to a superior; in that he draws the cup, it is as when having brought (something) to a superior one proclaims (it); in that he puts it down, it is as when having deposited something with a superior one goes away. Whatever of the sacrifice is accompanied by a Saman or Yajus, is loose; whatever by a Rc is firm; they are drawn with a support in front to the accompaniment of a Yajus, (they are drawn) with a support behind to the accompaniment of a Rc, for the support of the sacrifice.
(##)

Basically it is a verse talking about Soma Sacrifice (ie., fire ritual) and the renewed taking of Agrayana cup. Nothing about “killing a female child”.

Also, one should remember that Sanskrit in general and Vedas in particular are very symbolic in nature. Hence, they should never be intreperted literally. For example, the words for Earth, Mother, Horse, Cow etc are same. If one wishfully intreprets things according to what he wants without seeing it in the full context.

Do I need to prove more on how “true” are these “Vedic references”


6. Hiding of the necessary facts or twisting them: For example, Hindu society is not a “book” based religion. Hence, books in the lives of Hindus have no more value than “scholar opinions in an encyclopedia”. If we don’t like a book, we simple write a new book. The “references” given there are baseless… but even if for arguments sake they are true, they are of no value to the Hindus.

Or the cases where the author talks of hundreds of women jumping into fire. It is true that there exist such instances. However, its more important when such things happened… they happened when a king lost to Islamic invaders and the royal women to guard their honour against the invading barbarics and avoid being taken by them as slaves choose to die instead (refer: Muslim Slave System in Medieval India)

Also, it depends on how you interpret things. For example, talking about the “lowly” treatment of women, it is very common to see these days people quoting that some book saying “a woman in her childhood is protected by father; in her youth, she is protected by husband; in her oldage she is protected by son”.

Many people interpret it as a symbol of the “low” treatment of women. But I fail to understand how it is so. It does not talk about suppressing womens liberty. It only talks protecting a woman. That does not necessarily mean that she cannot protect herself; it can also mean that, it is always some man’s responsibility to protect the women, whether father, husband or son. It is their responsibility to ensure that woman is always looked after.



Does one need more proof to say it is a crap?

Worship of the living God

Was reading a book containing selections from different lectures of Swami Vivekananda. Found this one very nice and sharing it here:

----------8<--------------

the secret of religion lies not in theories but in practice. To be good and to do good — that is the whole of religion. "Not he that crieth 'Lord', 'Lord', but he that doeth the will of the Father".

Be moral. Be brave. Be a heart-whole man. Strictly moral, brave unto desperation. Don't bother your head with religious theories. Cowards only sin, brave men never, no, not even in mind.

If you are really pure, how do you see the impure? For what is within, is without. We cannot see impurity without having it inside ourselves. This is one of the practical sides of Vedanta, and I hope that we shall all try to carry it into our lives.

Doing good to others is virtue (Dharma); injuring others is sin. Strength and manliness are virtue; weakness and cowardice are sin. Independence is virtue; dependence is sin. Loving others is virtue; hating others is sin. Faith in God and in one's own Self is virtue; doubt is sin. Knowledge of oneness is virtue; seeing diversity is sin.

The watchword of all well-being, of all moral good is not "I" but "thou". Who cares whether there is a heaven or a hell, who cares if there is a soul or not, who cares if there is an unchangeable or not? Here is the world, and it is full of misery. Go out into it as Buddha did, and struggle to lessen it or die in the attempt. Forget yourselves; this is the first lesson to be learnt, whether you are a theist or an atheist, whether you are an agnostic or a Vedantist, a Christian or a Mohammedan. The one lesson obvious to all is the destruction of the little self and the building up of the Real Self.

After so much austerity, I have understood this as the real truth — God is present in every Jiva; there is no other God besides that. 'Who serves Jiva, serves God indeed'

These are His manifold forms before thee,
Rejecting them, where seekest thou for God?
Who loves all beings without distinction,
He indeed is worshipping best his God.

You have read “matrudevo bhava, pitrudevo bhava” – ‘Look upon your mother as God, look upon your father as God’, - but I say “daridradevo bhava, murkhadevo bhava” – the poor, the illiterate, the ignorant, the afflicted – let these be your God. Know that service to these alone is the highest religion.

We want to worship a living God. I have seen nothing but God all my life, nor have you. To see this chair you first see God, and then the chair in and through Him He is everywhere saying, "I am". The moment you feel "I am", you are conscious of Existence. Where shall we go to find God if we cannot see Him in our own hearts and in every living being?

If in this hell of a world one can bring a little joy and peace even for a day into the heart of a single person, that much alone is true; this I have learnt after suffering all my life; all else is mere moonshine.

If you want any good to come, just throw your ceremonials overboard and worship the Living God, the Man-God — every being that wears a human form — God in His universal as well as individual aspect. The universal aspect of God means this world, and worshipping it means serving it — this indeed is work, not indulging in ceremonials... Millions of rupees have been spent only that the temple-doors at Varanasi or Vrindaban may play at opening and shutting all day long! Now the Lord is having His toilet, now He is taking His meals, now He is busy on something else we know not what. ... And all this, while the Living God is dying for want of food, for want of education! The banias of Bombay are erecting hospitals for bugs — while they would do nothing for men even if they die! You have not the brain to understand this simple thing — that it is a plague with our country, and lunatic asylums are rife all over.

Look upon every man, woman, and every one as God. You cannot help anyone, you can only serve: serve the children of the Lord, serve the Lord Himself, if you have the privilege. If the Lord grants that you can help any one of His children, blessed you are; do not think too much of yourselves. Blessed you are that that privilege was given to you when others had it not. Do it only as a worship. I should see God in the poor, and it is for my salvation that I go and worship them. The poor and the miserable are for our salvation, so that we may serve the Lord, coming in the shape of the diseased, coming in the shape of the lunatic, the leper, and the sinner!

The first of all worship is the worship of the Virat — of those all around us. Worship It. Worship is the exact equivalent of the Sanskrit word, and no other English word will do. These are all our gods — men and animals; and the first gods we have to worship are our countrymen. These we have to worship, instead of being jealous of each other and fighting each other.

This is the gist of all worship — to be pure and to do good to others. He who sees Shiva in the poor, in the weak, and in the diseased, really worships Shiva; and if he sees Shiva only in the image, his worship is but preliminary. He who has served and helped one poor man seeing Shiva in him, without thinking of his caste, or creed, or race, or anything, with him Shiva is more pleased than with the man who sees Him only in temples.
A rich man had a garden and two gardeners. One of these gardeners was very lazy and did not work; but when the owner came to the garden, the lazy man would get up and fold his arms and say, "How beautiful is the face of my master", and dance before him. The other gardener would not talk much, but would work hard, and produce all sorts of fruits and vegetables which he would carry on his head to his master who lived a long way off. Of these two gardeners, which would be the more beloved of his master?

Shiva is that master, and this world is His garden, and there are two sorts of gardeners here; the one who is lazy, hypocritical, and does nothing, only talking about Shiva's beautiful eyes and nose and other features; and the other, who is taking care of Shiva's children, all those that are poor and weak, all animals, and all His creation. Which of these would be the more beloved of Shiva? Certainly he that serves His children. He who wants to serve the father must serve the children first. He who wants to serve Shiva must serve His children — must serve all creatures in this world first. It is said in the Shâstra that those who serve the servants of God are His greatest servants. So you will bear this in mind.

Let me tell you again that you must be pure and help any one who comes to you, as much as lies in your power. And this is good Karma. By the power of this, the heart becomes pure (Chitta-shuddhi), and then Shiva who is residing in every one will become manifest… And if a man is selfish, even though he has visited all the temples, seen all the places of pilgrimage, and painted himself like a leopard, he is still further off from Shiva.

You are the highest temple of God; I would rather worship you than any temple, image, or Bible. Why are some people so contradictory in their thought?... They say they are hard-headed practical men. Very good. But what is more practical than worshipping here, worshipping you? I see you, feel you, and I know you are God... The only God to worship is the human soul in the human body. Of course all animals are temples too, but man is the highest, the Taj Mahal of temples. If I cannot worship in that, no other temple will be of any advantage. The moment I have realised God sitting in the temple of every human body, the moment I stand in reverence before every human being and see God in him — that moment I am free from bondage, everything that binds vanishes, and I am free.

Bring all light into the world. Light, bring light! Let light come unto every one; the task will not be finished till every one has reached the Lord. Bring light to the poor and bring more light to the rich, for they require it more than the poor. Bring light to the ignorant, and more light to the educated, for the vanities of the education of our time are tremendous! Thus bring light to all and leave the rest unto the Lord, for in the words of the same Lord "To work you have the right and not to the fruits thereof." "Let not your work produce results for you, and at the same time may you never be without work."
---------->8-------------

Hinduism vs Humanism !!

I see a lot of Hindus holding that humanism is more important than religions and hence in that process shun their Hindu identity. The following is a post made in that context, trying to analyze this apparent contradiction between Hinduism and Humanism.

Question:
No religion is bigger than Humanism
Why to fight for religion?

My Reply:
Arg.. these humanists. In my view they are just apologists selling old wine in new bottles.

Doesn’t the Hindu scriptures resonate with the idea of “vasudaiva kutumbakam” – the world as one large family?

Doesn’t the Shanti mantras in the Upanishads go on as “let everyone be happy, let everyone attain life fulfillment.. Shantih Shantih Shantih”

Doesn’t the Rig Veda declare “let noble thoughts come to us from ALL directions”

Are there any references to any Saint saying that they are only for Hindus? Didn’t they always maintain an universal attitude? They rather said that something which is not universal in nature is not truth at all coz it is limited.

Did anyone see any Hindu criticizing the forms or worship or the religious ideals of other religions and calling them “false” (I am speaking of religious/philosophical condemnation, not the condemnation of the dogmatic aspects in them)

Doesn’t the Vedas declare that “truth is one, but sages call it by different names”

Doesn't Hinduism say that every human is divine... nay even the animals and plants are divine?

So what’s this fuss about “Humanism”. Is Hinduism not already “humanist”… why do we need to bring some new European terms to drive that idea.

It is like that old man carrying a goat story. Once a man was carrying a goat on his shoulders. Some set of people wanted to get that goat.. but how to do it. While the guy was walking, the first comes and says to the person.. why are you carrying a dog with you?

The man replies that it is not a dog, but a goat and proceeds with his journey. Then after some time the second man comes and asks the same question… why are you carrying a dog. The man again clarifies that it is not a dog but a goat.

This repast third time… fourth time… fifth time. Finally the man starts thinking that he is really carrying a dog, else why shouls all those people say it… leaves the goat (which he thought to be a dog) there and starts searching for a goat.

The situation of Hindus today is no different. Hinduism is already universal enough in nature. But some groups have repeatedly tried to malign it. So the new set of apologetic Hindu breed try to shy away from that identity, instead of trying to clean that malign and try to assume more fashionable identities like “religious humanism”, “spiritual”, “Humanist” blah blah.

[Sorry for my outburst. It was a general post about the above mentioned type of apologists in orkut. Please don’t take the post as aimed a *you*. ]


>> Why to fight for religion?

Nobody here is keen to fight for ‘religion’, but for the ideals which come to represent in the form of religion.

We stand against the dogmatism of calling all other paths false and be damned to hell if you don’t accept Christ as your last savior. We fight the dogmatism of calling all non-muslims kafir and maintaining a derogatory outlook of them. We fight the dogmatism which expresses itself in the form of conversion by force, money, fraud and sows the seeds of separatism and hatred. If you don’t also agree to it, then you are contradicting yourself. But if you also support this, then let me tell you that in the existing state of affairs, you stand the danger of being called a fundamentalist.

Hypnotised Realization!!!!!

This is another intresting puzzle posed by Krishna

Krishna’s Post:
I have a query which I feel ye scholars should address. If a person is hypnotised to make him believe that his mission is only devotional service to God or if a person is hynotised to make him develop full faith in Ajata Vada, is he moving towards the path of realization.

This question seems ludicrous at first sight, but let me ellaborate. There are a lot of swamis out there who can perform mass-hypnotism. Say a swami hypnotises his apprentice to make him develop full confidence in chanting, so much so that he is totally indebted to Krushna just as Mirabai was and keeps on chanting and loving Krushna day in and day out, can this be considered a mode of realisation?

Also if a person is hypnotised to believe that all are in reality one, such that he sees all in him and him in all, is he moving towards realization? I know that you guys would give an obvious NO, but can you justify your NO.

What if say my client till the moment of death keeps chanting just as Mira did until death or is totally convinced about the truth of Ajata Vada? Dont tell me that doubts will continue to exist on the subconscious plane, because hypnotism itself implies control at a subconscious plane.

My Reply:
An incident from the life to Swami Vivekananda comes to my mind. Once he was giving a lecture and was in full flow of ideas and the audience were listening in full attention and to put it symbolically in another state altogether as a result of the high spiritual state SV was in. Suddenly a person stood up and asked SV, “Swamiji are you hypnotizing us?”. SV replied “no I am only trying to de-hypnotize you. You have already hypnotized yourself thinking that you are this body etc etc. I am only trying to de-hypnotize and tell you about your true nature.”

Now coming to the question, hypnotism can be done only done to a weak mind. The whole funda of hypnotism is that a weak mind is controlled by a stronger mind. So it is certainly possible for one spiritual gaint to hypnotize someone to anything… to Bhakti marga in your question. But we have to remember that the person who is hypnotizing does so at the cost of spending his mental energies and hence becomes weaker; and the person who is hypnotized will as a result of frequent hypnotism will get used to it and so higher and higher energies are required to hypnotize him (just like a drunkard can take more alcohol than a guy who has it only occasionally).

So a person may be temporarily hypnotized but never can it be done permanently. If it is not real, sooner or later he will realize.

And this temporary surrender to someone else due to being hypnotized can be explained away as his karma-phala through that guy.

>> Also if a person is hypnotised to believe that all are in reality one, such that he sees all in him and him in all, is he moving towards realization? I know that you guys would give an obvious NO, but can you justify your NO.

Truth is something that never contradicts itself and can always be repeated any number of times. So the ‘realization’ in that condition does not count as realization; one just thinks he is, which does not make it real.

Its just like some hippies taking drugs and feeling that they are in some high spiritual state. It does not make it true, only one may think it.

But if the person really experience/knows that reality and has indeed realized that oneness, it will be surely called realization. But then it is no more hypnotism, coz hypnotism is making the false feel true. If the person really realizes, then it will be making a true feel true, and hence no more hypnotism.

Probably the question you meant t to ask was: is realization only possible through self effort or is it also possible by grace say of guru.

In my view it is possible to have realization through the grace (actually self effort is still involved in making oneself fit for grace). Rakhal (later Swami Brahmananda) was one of the favorite disciples of Sri Ramakrishna. Due to the grace of Sri Ramakrishna, he was a realized soul. Even then he always used to completely immerse himself in spiritual sadhanas. Once a devotee asked him why he was still immersed in Spiritul Sadhanas, for which he replied “Through the grace of Sri Ramakrishna I have attained realization, but I want to make it my own”. … it’s the difference between the owner and a rental person. The person living on rent in a house may have all of the house, but does not have power to give it to someone else according to his will. But the owner can have all of the house and also give to someone else on rent according to his will.

Krishna’s Reply:
No Surya, I do not agree with what you say - That only a strong mind can hypnotise a weaker mind. If that were true, there would be nothing such as self-hypnosis.

What is hypnotism? It is the process of offering suggestions or vrittis to the subconscious mind. It can be done by yourself to yourself. You can record your voice on micro-phone, and enter a stage called Alpha State and etch those suggestions in your mind. It is nothing miraculous. To better explain this, let me resort to an example. Just like how you feel breathing is natural because it is a subconscious thought, you can feel Bhakti or working hard for an exam or quitting smoking is natural if you are given a post-hynotic suggestion by yourself to yourself.

Also, the concepts of Vivekananda do not apply here, because the existance of something like self-hypnotism itself denies his arguments. So what do you say now?

Hypnotism just like Raja Yoga is covered with a shroud of mystery and mysticism, a proper understanding of the way it works will tell you that it is nothing harmful. You can contact any pshychriatist for the purpose. In light of these points, what are the answers to my questions?

P.S. And Yeah! I have read your arguments in SV's book on Raja Yoga. And I do not agree with SV's views here, and that is why this question is all the more pertinent

My Reply:
May be first we can then define what hypnotism means, then go on further.

My whole analysis is on the definition that hypnotism is control over a mind, so in that self-hypnosis does not make sense as it is a active phenomenon and not a passive one.

Ok, lets leave mine and come to yours: It is the process of offering suggestions or vrittis to the subconscious mind.

If it is simple process of offering *suggestions*, then it is no more a control. Hence the very question of being hypnotized into following bhakti or ajata vada is absurd.

The situation then will be no different than from how the seeing lot of violence on TV creates more subconscious vrittis in the mind. Whether someone else tells your subconscious or your yourself record it tell yourself or you get through some audio-visual modes, here the effect on subconscious is not about the mind being controlled but being disturbed by creating vrittis. In the calm lake of mind, someone throws a stone and disturbs it. This can be done by anyone even by oneself.

Fine upto now, but then your following statement in accordance to your definition of hypnosis by saying “hypnotism itself implies control at a subconscious plane”

So you are applying two different definitions at two different points. Either make it just offering vrittis, or control over mind.

If it is offering vrittis, then it does not require a stronger mind, but the vritti WILL die down sooner or later.

If it is control of mind, then my earlier explanation holds.

So what ever definition of hypnosis you take, you will realize that the effects of it are always going to be temporary and can never be permanent.

If you ask does it make sense that others/surroundings effect my subconscious mind and hence accelerate or delay my spiritual growth… yes it is quite logical. That’s why the concepts of satsangh and staying away from bad company come into the picture.

Symbolism of Goddess Kali

Goddess Kali evades the understanding of most. The way She is represented not just makes it difficult to understand but sometimes even terrifying. But the symbolism of Kali is one of deep philosophic importance. I stumbled upon the following writeup on this topic. Its simply great:

Kaali Maata (Meaning and Significance)
Kaali is one of the best known, but poorly understood forms of the Hindu Goddess. She is dark destructive and terrible in image. She is allied to the forces of death and destruction. The most common image of Kaali shows her dancing on Shiva. This article aims to give an insight into Hinduism's use of such mystic imagery.

About Kaali :
The Sanskrit word Kaali literally means "time". Kaali is the feminine word for time, for which the masculine is "kaala". Time as we are forced to understand it, is the foremost power that we experience. Kaali is the personification of time and it is not surprising that the deity of time has a terrifying image. After all, time is the slayer of all. Time is the very stuff that our lives are made of - to waste time is to waste life. The reason as to why time is represented in a feminine form is that time is the great womb - the great mother - from which we are all created - therefore it has a feminine quality. Time is also the force which causes all living beings to perish. Therefore Kaali is like the mother who destroys the children which she has created - which is one of her frightful features. Yet, through the action of time, Her action, occurs our salvation. Through time, over repeated births, we experience all that we have to and learn all that we must learn in order to merge back into our eternal existence, from which we fell into limited time and space.

Does Kaali actually have a separate consciousness or is she just a representation of time as an unthinking scientific principle?

Hinduism personifies what to us are abstract spiritual truths as Gods and Goddesses. Spiritual ideas are clothed in concrete imagery, and approached as living beings. This does not reflect a lack of reasoned thinking, or attachment to form, but rather an experiential contact with the higher truths, as living forces. Hinduism creates a personal relationship between ourselves and the forces of the cosmos, and eventually leads us to realise that these forces are within us rather than separate. All forces of the universe are pervaded by consciousness, hence the reason as to why they are approached as living beings is because in reality, they are. The purpose of vivid imagery is that whilst meditating upon the image, our mind is shocked into thinking into the depths of the concept we are trying to understand and know, beyond our usual conditioned ideas.In that way we can really experience the truth of time as an awesome conscious force and understand how our existence relates to it.

Why Is She Dancing On Shiva?
Shiva, in the Shaivite tradition, is the all pervading eternal primeval consciousness of the universe and beyond, who is beyond motivation. Hence, He is commonly shown as meditating in tranquil. His action and motivation occur only prior to the final destruction and dissolution of this cycle of creation. Hence, when Shiva dances, it is considered to be the terrible awesome dance of destruction.

It is on the passive, ultimate reality of Shiva, that Kaali (time) does her dance, causing the constant cycles of creation, life and death of all things in the universe. Shiva is the substratum upon which Kaali acts. Hence, in this part of the Hindu spiritual traditions, the entire divine action and existence is represented by the dance of Kaali (time) upon the changeless all pervading consciousness, Shiva.

The Shiv tattava (Divine Consciousness as Shiva) is inactive, while the Shakti tattava (Divine Energy as Kali) is active. Shiva, or Mahadeva represents Brahman, the Absolute pure consciousness which is beyond all names, forms and activities. Kali, on the other hand, represents the potential (and manifested) energy responsible for all names, forms and activities. She is his Shakti, or creative power, and is seen as the substance behind the entire content of all consciousness. She can never exist apart from Shiva or act independently of him, i.e., Shakti, all the matter/energy of the universe, is not distinct from Shiva, or Brahman, but is rather the dynamic power of Brahman.

A puzzle on Emancipation


This was a interesting puzzle posed by Krishna and my reply to it.


Krishna:

Whose name should we hold sacred; Who is that All-glorious, Resplendent Being Who is imperishable among all the perishable things; Who having made us enjoy the bliss of emancipation again invests us with bodies and thereby gives us the pleasure of seeing our parents? It is the All-glorious, Eternal, Immortal, All-pervading, Supreme Being Whose name we should hold sacred. He, it is, Who helps us to enjoy the bliss of Emancipation and then bring us back into this world, clothes us with bodies, and thereby gives us the pleasure of seeing our parents. The same Divine Spirit it is Who regulates the period of Emancipation and lords over all.

RIG VEDA 1:24, 2.

What are the implications of this verse?

There is no permanence in liberation from Life and Death (notice the underlined part)

A soul might be liberated in this kalpa but after the mahaKalpa - The Grand dissolution. Does the jivas return? Adhyaasa remanifests?

This puts all the vedantin philosophy under a re-examination (or does it) . Because most (99.99%) of the Vedantins be they from dualist, monist or qualified monist sects believe in permanence of Liberation. So what are the implications of this verse?


First look at this verse may make the reader rethink his philosophy. But another interpretation, to this verse : Does this fill in the vedantic gaps? ( like the actual cause of unreal adhyaasa? )

This is a very good read on the implications.

However, total justice is not done as the argument presented is one sided.

I am looking forward to a good discussion.

My Reply:

The idea of liberation is not that a being is there and it is free forever in the future, but the very idea of time is annihilated and hence it is free. Sometimes the word eternal is used to just finger point at the reality; but this should not be misunderstood as final. By liberation, soul does not become free in time eternally, but it becomes free from time.

Let us take an example: suppose there is a ocean and we are different drops in it. Once a drop is formed, it has an individuality, an "I". So it also starts to be effected by various results of the duality. But once the drop becomes one with the ocean, it is nolonger exists and the drop is gone free from the effects of duality for ever.

But at the same time there may form another drop with the same water again and undergo all the cycle again. But here it is not the same old drop which has again come under the effect of duality.

In the same manner, a soul once liberated becomes free for ever; but after a mahapralaya one more soul may appear. But this is nolonger to be seen as the same soul as the previous. The history of the first drop once it mixes again in the ocean is no longer present; time becomes irrelevant to it coz the very individuality itself is lost.

But seeing from a view point of another drop whose time is going on, the first drop was formed, then gone and then again a drop formed.

So the basic mistake here is while saying the soul becomes eternally free, we are talking from the stand point of the time as seen from the first drop. But when we are saying that the drop which lost its individuality has is again having an individuality, we are talking from the view point of time as seen from another drop which is being witness to this process. We are mixing up statements from two different stand points of time.

Dibya’s Reply:

Krishna:

The translation you are using already has certain interpretations ingrained in it. It is not literal enough so that you can actually base any objective argument upon it. Let me provide you a faithful translation so that you guys can base your arguments upon it:

Rgveda 1.24.1-2:

कस्य॑ नूनं क॑त॒मस्या॒मृता॑नां॒ मना॑महे॒ चारु॑ दे॒वस्य॒ नाम॑।
को नो॑ म॒ह्या अदि॑तये॒ पुन॑र्दात्पि॒तरं॑ दृ॒शेयं॑ मा॒तरं॑ च॥१॥

Whose (kásya) now (nUnam) ... Of which God (katamásya devásya) among the immortals (amR'tAnAm) shall we think (mánAmahe) of the esteemed name (cÁru nÁma)? Who would have given* us again (káH naH púnaH dAt) to the great Aditi (mahyái áditaye), so that I could see (dRsheyam) my father and mother (pitáram mAtáram ca)?

अ॒ग्नेर्व॒यं प्र॑थ॒मस्या॒मृता॑नां॒ मना॑महे॒ चारु॑ दे॒वस्य॒ नाम॑।
नो॑ म॒ह्या अदि॑तये॒ पुन॑र्दात्पि॒तरं॑ दृ॒शेयं॑ मा॒तरं॑ च॥२॥

First among the immortals (prathamásya amR'tAnAm) we shall think (vayám manAmahe) of the esteemed name of Agni (agnéH cÁru nÁma). He gives/would have given* (sáH dAt) us again to the great Aditi, so that I could see my father and mother.

* The Vedic verb-form "dAt" is not very specific for tense/mood - so it may be debated upon whether the RSi wants or not to impart some amount of uncertainty, here. Otherwise, the meaning is pretty much clear ... right?

The translation Krishna provided already contains some interpretations of the terms Agni, Aditi, etc... And remarkably, the verses have not spoken a single word about emancipation - at least not directly.

I am not challenging any interpretation. However, I would prefer a literal reading of the verse as a starting point, rather than some interpretation already imparted into the items which are open to different interpretation.
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>> What is the source of your Verse, I would very much like to read your version of the vedas.

My version? Oh no, I have no my version of Vedas. This is just a word-for-word translation from the Rgveda, which I myself made right now - seeing that the original translation used was not a close one. I don't have any problem with the interpretation you have provided, but people may actually need not bring in the question of "emancipation" to interprete this verse - that was all I meant...