Why Salvation
Reproducing from a discussion on orkut.
Question:
Now these must be the dumbest questions of all....but it just came to my mind while watching Matrix Revolutions (which as all of you know reflects the basic understanding of Hinduism too) and I'd a hard time finding the "flaw" in the reasoning....so please bear with me and if possible help me understand!
Exactly what is salvation? How does taking birth again and again matter to the soul?
Our souls are supposed to be beyond any feeling of pleasure and pain......its our mortal bodies that experience these feelings.......so what are rebirths, heaven and hell to a soul? In a way, what does "returning to source" really means as in Hinduism?
So, clearly put, the question can be divided in 2:
1) If soul is so beyond any feelings, then being on earth, being in heaven, being in hell are all same to it! So, none is better then the other.....why strive for getting out of the birth cycles?
2) What is salvation according to Hinduism? Death of soul as in merging with the supreme being (source)? Why is it better then life?
My Reply:
<<< Our souls are supposed to be beyond any feeling of pleasure and pain......its our mortal bodies that experience these feelings.......so what are rebirths, heaven and hell to a soul? In a way, what does "returning to source" really means as in Hinduism?>>>>
You are mixing up two states here.
Lets take a example, of waking and dream state. Suppose if a person sleeps and has a dream. All the characters in his dream are not really there, but he feels in that dream that he has killed somebody or that some of his near and dear are lost etc etc. and then in the dream, he becomes happy/unhappy…. ie., he becomes affected by them.
But all the time it was a dream, the person did not really get effected in the manner he thought by the dream. He was has not killed, nor has anyone died except in his dream.
If one asks does the happenings and experiences of the dream are real or not… they are depending on our state. As long as the person is in the state of dream, all of it is real to him, but no sooner is he awake, he realizes that it was all a just a dream and not real.
In the same manner, the soul is eternally free and beyond all pleasure and pain. Thus the very concept of freedom of soul is wrong. It is already free.
What is the mukti we talk about then… it is realization of this fact. All these rebirths, spiritual disciplines, etc are there as long as we are not aware of this truth, just as all the suffering of the dream is there as long as the dream is there. Soul never gets liberated… it is already free… it only realizes its nature, just like a person waking up from dream realizes his pain, pleasure, etc to be unreal.
Coming to your other question of why salvation….Finding the fundamental human motive to all actions has been always been the complex question before thinkers. Marx tries to explain everything in terms of money, while Darwin tries to explain it as “survival instinct” (Freud unable to explain suicide also introduces another thing called “suicide instinct”). Like that different possibilities are given as per what is the basic human motive…. What drives men to do something and not to do something.
I feel the most fundamental of all is “freedom”. In what ever ppl do, you can see that they this is the one factor are work always. Whether it is survival instinct (freedom from pain) or suicide instinct (freedom from unavoidable pain) or craving for money (freedom from limitations and dependability) or concept of hell and heaven (freedom from death) or unselfishness (freedom from limited ‘ego’)…. Whatever be the action, you can see that this is one motive which is present in one way or other.
Different actions are present due to different understanding of this freedom. For example freedom to enjoy a careless life now, to repent later (which is based on immediate freedom) or be disciplined (freedom to control) now and get the results of this hard work in future (long term freedom)
All these actions are having the same motive, but different understanding. One short term and one long term in the above example.
Concept of Mukti is based on this idea only. You are not satisfied with limited freedom… there is no end to the want of freedom. Soul being infinite in nature cannot bear limitation, it thus wants complete or infinite freedom. What way is there to attain complete, than to become one with the infinite. As long as there ‘I’ there will also be ‘not I’ which will have its effect on the ‘I’. So the only way to remove the ‘not I’ is to remove ‘I’.
Thus we have all these ideas of Mukti as liberation, Mukti as freedom, Mukti as realization, Mukti as being one with God, Mukti as removal of ‘I’. All these are just different forms of expressing the same idea.
< What is salvation according to Hinduism?>
I think previous para of my post answers that.
<>
there is no death to soul. It is eternal. The death is only of ‘I’.
<>
because unlimited is always better than limited.
Question:
I still have 2 questions (and actually these have been lingering even before this discussion started).
1. Assuming that the soul is infinite and free, and it is a matter of realizing that, what is the reason for it to become finite and bound? I mean assuming that there was only 'Om' or Brahman or Parmatman at the beginning, what is the reason that he formed the Universe and all the beings in it? Why was there disturbance in an otherwise all-stready Infinite mass?
In other words, what is the cause of The Cause?
2. If you say that soul has attributes and it is only a matter of our ignorance (or our being in 'dreaming state'), how do our actions in past births affect us? I mean, assuming that mind and body change with each birth, how is the past 'karma' carried forward? As far as i cna see, the only thing that might be common across births is the thing referred to as soul...
My Reply:
<<>>>
There is a nice Vedantic story about a lioness, who was big with young, going about in search of prey; and seeing a flock of sheep, she jumped upon them. She died in the effort; and a little baby lion was born, motherless. It was taken care of by the sheep and the sheep brought it up, and it grew up with them, ate grass, and said "Ba-a-a" when the sheep said "Ba-a-a". And although in time it became a big, full-grown lion. it thought it was a sheep.
One day another lion came by. in search of prey and was astonished to find that in the midst of this flock of sheep was a lion, fleeing like the sheep at the approach of danger. "What do you do here?" said the second lion in astonishment: for he heard the sheep-lion bleating with the rest. "Ba-a-a," said the other. "I am a little sheep, I am a little sheep, I am frightened." "Nonsense!" roared the first lion, "come with me; I will show you." And he took him to the side of a smooth stream and showed him that which was reflected therein. "You are a lion; look at me, look at the sheep, look at yourself." And the sheep-lion looked, and then he said, "Ba-a-a, I do not look like the sheep — it is true, I am a lion!" and with that he roared a roar that shook the hills to their depths.
Our situation is no different. All the time we are the infininte, pure, omnipotent atman. But we come to delude ourselves that we are limited and bound. So it is not correct to ask why the Atman got limited. It never got; we only felt it was. The lion never became the sheep; it only deluded itself to be so. As long it was under than delusion, it also suffered from fear of danger of other lions. It had no danger, but it still felt itself to be in a danger.
In the same manner, the man when in delusion will be effected by the results of it. It is only when the lion realized that it too is a lion, it got rid of the fear. Else it was also being subjected to the same fear, as any other sheep.
Also from my previous example, the dream of the man was not really affecting the man. But as long as the person is in dream, he WILL feel its effects. The lion was never effected, but as long as it is in the delusion, it WILL feel the effects of the fear. All these actions/good/bad etc cannot effect in any way the eternally free atman. But as long as we feel that we are not the Atman, but only limited being, we WILL continue to feel the effects of it. As long as you are in the limited, you feel the implications of the limited. You have to go through all the births and deaths etc. All the dreams are true, as long as you are in the dream. When you get up, you realize it was all a dream.
<<1. Assuming that the soul is infinite and free, and it is a matter of realizing that, what is the reason for it to become finite and bound?>>>
yea this is the most natural question…why the infinite became finite; or why it appears to have become finite. But just think, is the answer for this question really possible?
What is meant by knowledge in our common-sense idea? It is only something that has become limited by our mind, that we know, and when it is beyond our mind, it is not knowledge. We seek to know how the Absolute has become the relative. Supposing we knew the answer, would the Absolute remain the Absolute? It would have become relative. Now if the Absolute becomes limited by the mind, It is no more Absolute; It has become finite. Everything limited by the mind becomes finite. Therefore to know the Absolute is again a contradiction in terms. That is why this question has never been answered, because if it were answered, there would no more be an Absolute.
In asking what caused the Absolute, what an error we are making! To ask this question we have to suppose that the Absolute also is bound by something, that It is dependent on something; and in making this supposition, we drag the Absolute down to the level of the universe. For in the Absolute there is neither time, space, nor causation; It is all one. That which exists by itself alone cannot have any cause. That which is free cannot have any cause; else it would not be free, but bound. That which has relativity cannot be free. Thus we see the very question, why the Infinite became the finite, is an impossible one, for it is self-contradictory
Does this mean that there is then no answer to this question? No. It only means that an answer cannot be given in words and ideas (ie., in terms of mind). But answer IS possible for this question, only it is beyond mind.
How is the answer possible for this… to know an answer to something we have to either understand it, or become one with it. As understanding it impossible, become one with the infinite. As long as you are different from the infinite, you will not get the answer. Become one with, and you know all about it.
I think this conclusion is very natural. Suppose due to some reason, you who were free, got locked inside a room. Now the answer for why you got locked inside will be lie outside the room. Become free, and you will get the answer.
PS: Most of my post is from complete works of Swami Vivekananda. But I could not quote as I took from different places, changing the sentences selective according to this context.
Question:
Now these must be the dumbest questions of all....but it just came to my mind while watching Matrix Revolutions (which as all of you know reflects the basic understanding of Hinduism too) and I'd a hard time finding the "flaw" in the reasoning....so please bear with me and if possible help me understand!
Exactly what is salvation? How does taking birth again and again matter to the soul?
Our souls are supposed to be beyond any feeling of pleasure and pain......its our mortal bodies that experience these feelings.......so what are rebirths, heaven and hell to a soul? In a way, what does "returning to source" really means as in Hinduism?
So, clearly put, the question can be divided in 2:
1) If soul is so beyond any feelings, then being on earth, being in heaven, being in hell are all same to it! So, none is better then the other.....why strive for getting out of the birth cycles?
2) What is salvation according to Hinduism? Death of soul as in merging with the supreme being (source)? Why is it better then life?
My Reply:
<<<
You are mixing up two states here.
Lets take a example, of waking and dream state. Suppose if a person sleeps and has a dream. All the characters in his dream are not really there, but he feels in that dream that he has killed somebody or that some of his near and dear are lost etc etc. and then in the dream, he becomes happy/unhappy…. ie., he becomes affected by them.
But all the time it was a dream, the person did not really get effected in the manner he thought by the dream. He was has not killed, nor has anyone died except in his dream.
If one asks does the happenings and experiences of the dream are real or not… they are depending on our state. As long as the person is in the state of dream, all of it is real to him, but no sooner is he awake, he realizes that it was all a just a dream and not real.
In the same manner, the soul is eternally free and beyond all pleasure and pain. Thus the very concept of freedom of soul is wrong. It is already free.
What is the mukti we talk about then… it is realization of this fact. All these rebirths, spiritual disciplines, etc are there as long as we are not aware of this truth, just as all the suffering of the dream is there as long as the dream is there. Soul never gets liberated… it is already free… it only realizes its nature, just like a person waking up from dream realizes his pain, pleasure, etc to be unreal.
Coming to your other question of why salvation….Finding the fundamental human motive to all actions has been always been the complex question before thinkers. Marx tries to explain everything in terms of money, while Darwin tries to explain it as “survival instinct” (Freud unable to explain suicide also introduces another thing called “suicide instinct”). Like that different possibilities are given as per what is the basic human motive…. What drives men to do something and not to do something.
I feel the most fundamental of all is “freedom”. In what ever ppl do, you can see that they this is the one factor are work always. Whether it is survival instinct (freedom from pain) or suicide instinct (freedom from unavoidable pain) or craving for money (freedom from limitations and dependability) or concept of hell and heaven (freedom from death) or unselfishness (freedom from limited ‘ego’)…. Whatever be the action, you can see that this is one motive which is present in one way or other.
Different actions are present due to different understanding of this freedom. For example freedom to enjoy a careless life now, to repent later (which is based on immediate freedom) or be disciplined (freedom to control) now and get the results of this hard work in future (long term freedom)
All these actions are having the same motive, but different understanding. One short term and one long term in the above example.
Concept of Mukti is based on this idea only. You are not satisfied with limited freedom… there is no end to the want of freedom. Soul being infinite in nature cannot bear limitation, it thus wants complete or infinite freedom. What way is there to attain complete, than to become one with the infinite. As long as there ‘I’ there will also be ‘not I’ which will have its effect on the ‘I’. So the only way to remove the ‘not I’ is to remove ‘I’.
Thus we have all these ideas of Mukti as liberation, Mukti as freedom, Mukti as realization, Mukti as being one with God, Mukti as removal of ‘I’. All these are just different forms of expressing the same idea.
<
I think previous para of my post answers that.
<
there is no death to soul. It is eternal. The death is only of ‘I’.
<
because unlimited is always better than limited.
Question:
I still have 2 questions (and actually these have been lingering even before this discussion started).
1. Assuming that the soul is infinite and free, and it is a matter of realizing that, what is the reason for it to become finite and bound? I mean assuming that there was only 'Om' or Brahman or Parmatman at the beginning, what is the reason that he formed the Universe and all the beings in it? Why was there disturbance in an otherwise all-stready Infinite mass?
In other words, what is the cause of The Cause?
2. If you say that soul has attributes and it is only a matter of our ignorance (or our being in 'dreaming state'), how do our actions in past births affect us? I mean, assuming that mind and body change with each birth, how is the past 'karma' carried forward? As far as i cna see, the only thing that might be common across births is the thing referred to as soul...
My Reply:
<<
There is a nice Vedantic story about a lioness, who was big with young, going about in search of prey; and seeing a flock of sheep, she jumped upon them. She died in the effort; and a little baby lion was born, motherless. It was taken care of by the sheep and the sheep brought it up, and it grew up with them, ate grass, and said "Ba-a-a" when the sheep said "Ba-a-a". And although in time it became a big, full-grown lion. it thought it was a sheep.
One day another lion came by. in search of prey and was astonished to find that in the midst of this flock of sheep was a lion, fleeing like the sheep at the approach of danger. "What do you do here?" said the second lion in astonishment: for he heard the sheep-lion bleating with the rest. "Ba-a-a," said the other. "I am a little sheep, I am a little sheep, I am frightened." "Nonsense!" roared the first lion, "come with me; I will show you." And he took him to the side of a smooth stream and showed him that which was reflected therein. "You are a lion; look at me, look at the sheep, look at yourself." And the sheep-lion looked, and then he said, "Ba-a-a, I do not look like the sheep — it is true, I am a lion!" and with that he roared a roar that shook the hills to their depths.
Our situation is no different. All the time we are the infininte, pure, omnipotent atman. But we come to delude ourselves that we are limited and bound. So it is not correct to ask why the Atman got limited. It never got; we only felt it was. The lion never became the sheep; it only deluded itself to be so. As long it was under than delusion, it also suffered from fear of danger of other lions. It had no danger, but it still felt itself to be in a danger.
In the same manner, the man when in delusion will be effected by the results of it. It is only when the lion realized that it too is a lion, it got rid of the fear. Else it was also being subjected to the same fear, as any other sheep.
Also from my previous example, the dream of the man was not really affecting the man. But as long as the person is in dream, he WILL feel its effects. The lion was never effected, but as long as it is in the delusion, it WILL feel the effects of the fear. All these actions/good/bad etc cannot effect in any way the eternally free atman. But as long as we feel that we are not the Atman, but only limited being, we WILL continue to feel the effects of it. As long as you are in the limited, you feel the implications of the limited. You have to go through all the births and deaths etc. All the dreams are true, as long as you are in the dream. When you get up, you realize it was all a dream.
<<1.
yea this is the most natural question…why the infinite became finite; or why it appears to have become finite. But just think, is the answer for this question really possible?
What is meant by knowledge in our common-sense idea? It is only something that has become limited by our mind, that we know, and when it is beyond our mind, it is not knowledge. We seek to know how the Absolute has become the relative. Supposing we knew the answer, would the Absolute remain the Absolute? It would have become relative. Now if the Absolute becomes limited by the mind, It is no more Absolute; It has become finite. Everything limited by the mind becomes finite. Therefore to know the Absolute is again a contradiction in terms. That is why this question has never been answered, because if it were answered, there would no more be an Absolute.
In asking what caused the Absolute, what an error we are making! To ask this question we have to suppose that the Absolute also is bound by something, that It is dependent on something; and in making this supposition, we drag the Absolute down to the level of the universe. For in the Absolute there is neither time, space, nor causation; It is all one. That which exists by itself alone cannot have any cause. That which is free cannot have any cause; else it would not be free, but bound. That which has relativity cannot be free. Thus we see the very question, why the Infinite became the finite, is an impossible one, for it is self-contradictory
Does this mean that there is then no answer to this question? No. It only means that an answer cannot be given in words and ideas (ie., in terms of mind). But answer IS possible for this question, only it is beyond mind.
How is the answer possible for this… to know an answer to something we have to either understand it, or become one with it. As understanding it impossible, become one with the infinite. As long as you are different from the infinite, you will not get the answer. Become one with, and you know all about it.
I think this conclusion is very natural. Suppose due to some reason, you who were free, got locked inside a room. Now the answer for why you got locked inside will be lie outside the room. Become free, and you will get the answer.
PS: Most of my post is from complete works of Swami Vivekananda. But I could not quote as I took from different places, changing the sentences selective according to this context.
posted by S at 9:35 AM
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